This is the event on Facebook!
Here two awesome pieces taken from our speaker, Liv's, blog! Her writing is really diverse but I've focussed on two about fatphobia to relate to our talk
You Don't Look Fat
When thinner people (especially
people I love) tell me I ‘don’t look fat’ I get real mad.
Because aside from the fact that
it is a huge part of my recovery to see and love myself and my body as fat - not
curvy, not chubby, not thick, but FAT - it’s also reaffirming that this person
thinks of fat as an abstract concept, in the most harmful way, as what it
isn’t.
It is telling me that you think
fat people = unfashionable, lazy, gross, smelly, unkempt, ugly, un sexy, [add
infinite number of negative things here].
What I’m hearing is ‘You cannot
be a fat person and not be those things’
.
Well let me tell you something.
I am a fat person.
I am counted as obese by the
medical industry.
I weigh 225lbs at least, and
stand at 5”9.
I am a dress size 16-20 depending
on the store, on average a size 18.
Did you notice that that list
contains NO inherently negative descriptors? It is just pure representation of
fact, and WE attatch negatives to those facts because of attitudes WE carry
around with us.
I am all of those facts, but I am
not all of those negative things, let alone any of those negative things
BECAUSE I am fat.
When people tell me “but you
don’t look like a size 18/fat/obese etc.”, all I am hearing is “you don’t LOOK like my preconceptions
of what size 18s look like” and we all know what those preconceptions are,
because we (especially women) are all made to internalise them regardless of
our own body type, and fear them, and avoid them at all costs. You expect a
size 18 to look ‘bigger’ or ‘less ..X..’ because you have internalised a
perverted and warped idea of what the basic definition of ‘fat’ is – a high
amount of adipose tissue. That’s all it is. Being a size ..X.. is all that that
is. Being X does not necessitate Y. You are perpetuating the false notion that
fat = unattractive/unappealing/unhealthy/etc. and that any attractive fat
people are attractive in spite of
their fatness. As if fatness was something that should be excused, or
apologised for, or looked over, explained away, justified, or euphemised.
If someone is standing in front
of you and they tell you they are dress size X, then that dress size is what
they look like.
Can well-meaning thin people stop
saying this to us?
It is NOT a compliment. It is not
the right thing to say.
And the fact that you think it is
one is one big fat problem.
I will not euphemise my body for your discomfort.
_________________________________________________________________________
Some Thoughts on Thin Privilege and Employment
Thin Privilege is not worrying that you will be turned down
for any job because your potential employer will perceive your weight as being
synonymous with “lazy”
Thin Privilege is being able to apply confidently for jobs
in the clothing retail sector, unaware that many fat people don’t even bother
most of the time, as one glance at their weight marks them as instantly
“unfashionable” by the majority of employers, regardless of how on point their
personal style is.
Thin privilege is being able to apply for jobs where
uniforms are mandatory as the uniform will undoubtedly be carried in your size.
Thin privilege is being able to find cheap interview outfits
because more stores cater to smaller sizes.
Thin privilege is being perceived as “put together” when the
reality is “I rolled out of bed and landed in this” because people have been
conditioned to believe clothes look better and more expensive on thin bodies.
Thin privilege is not turning up to interview to be turned
away after five minutes of non-relevant questions as your interviewer has
already judged you as unsuitable due to their false weight-based assumptions
and prejudices.
Thin privilege is not discovering a less qualified, less
experienced, thin person got the job you were up for, probably because of
negative assumptions based on your weight.
Thin privilege is not being considered “bad for business”,
because of your weight, when working in the service sector.
Thin privilege is being relegated to stock room work because
your weight is seen as ugly and your boss needs a people-pleaser up front,
despite your incredible people skills and service experience.
Thin privilege is being paid more than your fat co-workers
for doing the same job - because
of your weight.
Thin privilege is being regarded as “more professional” than
your fat co-workers, thereby progressing further and quicker in your chosen
career, due to others’ weight-based prejudices.
Thin privilege is not being called irrational or neurotic
when you voice these real concerns to your friends, family, and most
importantly, your employers.
Thin privilege is being unaware of all of the above.
___________________________________________________________________________
I disagree with the above. Being fat is not healthy, it's terrible for everything - your stomach, your heart, your joints. Women and men are turned off by fat because of evolutionary biology. When we see fat members of the opposite sex, we don't feel attracted to them because they obviously live an unhealthy life and this is not a feature we look for in a partner. I do agree that we attach things to the concept of fat, for example 'smelly', 'lazy', but are those not in some way a reflection of reality? Fat people do sweat more, fat people tend to be very unfit and face it, lazy. At least with regards to physical activity.
ReplyDeleteI'm all for positive body image, etc., but if someone is medically obese, I don't it's okay and I don't think we should promote it as such. I know this sounds horrible but fat people cause the NHS so much every year because of the health issues related to being fat. It's not that difficult to lose weight, it just requires a bit of self-control and a bit of activity. Promoting a healthy lifestyle trumps promoting new outlooks on obesity. Join a gym, join some boxing lessons, join some yoga, go running. And eat healthy. Fattening food is just plain bad for you - our bodies weren't made to process that crap. Check out the paleo 'cave man' diet. It's delicious and healthy, you only eat natural stuff but you don't have to limit or starve yourself.
http://www.beautyredefined.net/redefining-health-part-1-measuring-the-obesity-crisis/
ReplyDeleteMore and more studies are showing the fact that people in the “overweight” and even “obese” categories of the BMI are at much lower risk of death than those in the “underweight” and even “normal” categories. So why do we keep measuring health based on BMI?
ReplyDelete-taken from the above article
I have one thing only to say about this and I will not respond any further because I don't wish to reveal too much before the talk. However, I am compelled to respond.
ReplyDeleteI feel that if someone is genuinely concerned for someone, about anything, then shouldn't the attitudes seen from that person be those of compassion, encouragement and understanding? Or at least something far enough away from shaming them and treating their bodies like public property to be scorned, judged, and dissected despite knowing literally NOTHING about the health (physical and mental) of the person whose body you felt such ~concern for.
If people are compelled to express how undeserving of affection, understanding, respect, love, and basic human decency a person is /because of their body alone/ then that, to me at least, exhibits a great LACK of concern for that person/group of people.
In fact the notion that a person should be underserving of those things because of their body, seems to me to be a thought more at home in the mind of a person who, at best, doesn't care enough about feelings of said group of people (indeed an actual real human being - HI there). To me, these are definitely not the sentiments of someone truly concerned for the wellbeing of another person.
If you truly DID care about the health of fat people, you would probably be aware of the countless new studies funded and carried out by LEGITIMATE institutions (such as the National Centre for Health Statistics at the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention, USA) which have researched links between fat and health to find the following: Obesity is a SYMPTOM not cause of diabetes, that people classed as “obese” on the (bullshit) BMI will live for 5% longer than “normal” or “underweight” people, that actually weight is NOT equal to health as we have been lead to believe, and that there is nothing “wrong” with having a “poor” metabolism as many of the previously supposed causatory links to various health problems are actually correlatory or symptomatic of existing conditions.
Given that a) you don’t know this or I wouldn’t be writing back to you right now, and b) you took time out of your day to tell another human being that they deserve less dignity than you simply because of their body, it's understandable to reach the conclusion that you don’t actually really truly care about the health and wellbeing of myself and other fat people.
You should probably consider this: If the bodies of other human beings can inspire such vitriol in you, simply by the crime of existing and asking to be respected, maybe you should re-evaluate your idea of "concern". Or, if that is too much for you, perhaps you should consider the possibility of you being an asshole.
OH YES LIV
ReplyDeleteThis is absurd. I don't mean to offend anyone but I really do not think that promoting the idea that it is okay to be, as you put it Liv, medically classified as obese is commendable. Neither is it particularly impressive to immediately dismiss somebody as an 'asshole' because their completely rational opinion is different to yours. Whether obesity is a symptom of diabetes or not (something I struggle to believe for many reasons, but not the point I am trying to make) is irrelevant; it does not make obesity 'healthy'. Again I reiterate, I don't mean to be at all rude here, purely objective, but no matter which way you look at it obesity is detrimental. People that are obese suffer many more health risks than those that or not. It also costs the NHS a vast amount of money each year, something that everybody else in the country has to deal with in the form of higher taxes, busier hospitals and increased waiting times.
ReplyDeleteWhat we're doing here is trying to allow people to with every kind of body to be treated as equals. When you say things like that to an obese person, you are basically saying that she shouldn't show off her body or write about liking it. Is that really any of your business? Whether you think obesity is healthy or not, is it justifiable to target obese people? Do you think that an adult woman doesn't know more than you about her own body? Why do you think you have to make her aware of concepts that she would've heard umpteen times every day? What we are trying to get you and everyone else to understand is that IT IS OFFENSIVE whether you mean it to be or not. Someone else's body is not your problem or business. It is commendable to campaign for better nutrition in schools and other issues that contribute to bad health, but telling LiV to stop being happy with her own body AINT HELPING ANYONE
ReplyDeleteOkay, so this isn't you, you pretty much copied this from someone on another blog.
ReplyDelete"You should probably consider this: If the bodies of other human beings can inspire such vitriol in you, simply by the crime of existing and asking to be respected, maybe you should re-evaluate your idea of "concern". Or, if that is too much for you, perhaps you should consider the possibility of you being an asshole."
Anyway that aside, I didn't say that you deserve less dignity. You seem to be having difficulty with your comprehension skills. I never said that you shouldn't be happy with your body, all I did was point out the medical repercussions of being obese. If you're happy with your body that's fine, but stop trying to remove connotations like 'unhealthy' from the word 'fat'. And finally you should just know Umber and Liv that all your arguments centre around BMI as a faulty indicator of health coupled with a nonsensical point you keep bringing up about how skinny people are just as unhealthy. No one was talking about that. Bringing up the dangers of being underweight is great but it's a separate issue. No one is saying "obesity is bad, so be underweight." FFS read properly and stop continuously making fallacious arguments. You should sort all of this out before the event.
Thanks for your concern Olivia, and I hope I haven't misinterpreted your position but due to wanting to create a fat-positive space this Thursday, I wont tolerate this kind of thing taking over the discussion or having any kind of presence. For that reason you and Alexandra will not be allowed entry.
Delete"Bigotry vs. Equality"
ReplyDelete'Will not tolerate' - such an appropriate phrase for someone who purports to be running a blog for equality amongst students. Incidentally calling yourself the 'London student equality' blog whilst banning London students from your events is pretty hypocritical wouldn't you agree?
What exactly is the point of having a debate on 'fat' where all dissent is silenced in the interest of making somewhere a 'fat-positive' space? (which is a bullshit concept, what exactly do you mean by 'fat-positive'? My mum (is clinically obese, and she) finds your idea of what constitutes 'fat-positive' to be nauseating, so perhaps you should have consulted with fat people to find out whether they want mollycoddling anyway?)
If I held a conference on the great things about being thin and why it should be celebrated, I wouldn't consider it a very well rounded discussion unless some people (fat OR thin) turned up and talked about their rational understanding of why being thin is rubbish. I'd be thrilled to hear their views, even if some people in the audience were anorexic and always hearing negative things about their bodies - because its important for people to talk about what their beliefs are in order for us to know them, assess them as wrong and counter them.
Ultimately taking this attitude of banning people with different opinions or points of view will make your debates and discussions as an institute (Courtauld Equality) less relevant. I guess we can all sigh a sigh of relief.
Any chance of loosening the reins at your next discussion, or will the attendance for all of them be limited to people who you have specially selected as being disciples of your own bigoted views?
(Incidentally, didn't attend your discussion on 'Fat and Feminism' yesterday as I had an unavoidable appointment at the gym - oops. Is that offensive? Sorry. I'll try not to mention the 'g' word again.)
I disagree with your general argument, and I think you've misunderstood the point and purpose of this particular event, it wasn't a debate it was more a lecture followed by questions. When hosting a debate I wouldn't ban people unless their views constituted fascism. In general this society hasn't served the purpose of debating two opposing sides to an issue but rather discussing differences within the same side so that we can unite against oppression and a big part of that is discussing it in order to understand it better. I hope you understand better but obviously this is something we haven't managed to reach a common ground on. Anyway you are more than welcome at our next event and feel free to join the facebook group in order to stay up to date on what we are doing
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/groups/362955207091034/